
##17064 ERIC @!BURNS , HOST : FOX NEWS WATCH Segment 1 , the photographic evidence , this is what Americans have done to Iraqis . This is what Iraqis did to Americans . We 'll cover the coverage . Segment 2 , are both of these people being indecent on the air ? And Segment 3 , Michael Moore blasts the president and claims censorship . Who was the Showtime TV Network 's candidate for president ? And a journalist is arrested for being a radical environmentalist . FOX NEWS WATCH after the news . @(NEWSBREAK) @!BURNS : On all news cable this week , these pictures have been worth hundreds of thousands of words . The most perceptive are still to come from Jim Pinkerton of " Newsday , " media writer Neal Gabler , Jane Hall of the American University , and host of her own radio show and Fox News contributor Monica Crowley in this week for Cal Thomas . I 'm Eric Burns . I 'm always here . FOX NEWS WATCH is coming right up . Well , CBS 's " 60 Minutes II @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ soldiers mistreated Iraqi prisoners of war . These pictures are one side of the story . These pictures are the other side . This is reportedly an American engineer in an Iraqi prison . This is one of the American contractors whose bodies were brutalized after they were killed by Iraqis a few weeks ago . Neal , what did I just do ? Put this whole matter of pictures into perspective or muddy the waters ? @!NEAL-GABLER-MEDIA : Well , I think you framed it exactly . The Bush Administration would like it to be framed and the right wing would like it to be framed . But if you 're asking me is the media hypocritical because they hold our soldiers to a higher standard than blood-thirsty terrorists ? My answer is no . I do n't think that 's hypocrisy . But let 's put that aside for the moment . Let 's examine the media 's performance on this issue . I think it 's remarkable that on January 16 , General Kimmitt announced publicly that there was an investigation of abuses in the prison . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ about abuses . More recently , Human Rights Watch released a report about abuses in Afghanistan at that ran prison . January , July , you know , last month . It took until last week for the press to be curious enough to start examining the issue . @!BURNS : Well , actually , it could have happened , Jane , as we know two weeks earlier but " 60 Minutes II , " at the request of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff , held on to their report for a couple of weeks . Was that a proper thing for them to do , to go along with the military because they feared the reaction to the story ? @!JANE-HALL-AMERICA : Well , from what I 've read , he asked them partially because of what was going on in Fallujah . I guess it was OK two weeks ago . A long time to wait . I agree with Neal in his criticism . The International Red Cross is also saying that they were reporting , at least to the Bush Administration not to the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I come away with two things . One is thank goodness for serious -- that there 's still one serious news magazine , " 60 Minutes II " and thank goodness for Sy Hersh who had the story of General Taguba 's report in " The New Yorker. " @!BURNS : Well , can we answer this question you 've raised as to why the media waited so long when the information was out there ? @!JIM-PINKERTON- " NE : Well , I think that Neal 's criticism about the tardiness and maybe the laziness of reporters is well taken and they could have more alert to this and so on . But I think there are a couple of points in terms of the context here that are worth dwelling on . No. 1 is there are n't too many countries in the world where this would have achieved the kind of splash it had across all the media and where the U.S. government would have reacted as quickly as it did , I mean in terms of . @!BURNS : And as contrite emerged . @!HALL : This is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , that 's something about our system though , that within a few days , the president of the United States is going on Arab TV and apologizing . @!GABLER : No , no , no , he did n't apologize . @!PINKERTON : Well , yes , he did the second time . He did the second time . Yes , he did . @!GABLER : Not when he went on Arab TV. @!PINKERTON : OK . He went on Arab TV , then apologized to King Abdullah and other Arab the next day . The second point is -- and this is , I think , critical as we go through this whole motion and cycle of investigation and so on and so on , is we need to get a little more careful about the language . It is commonly said that the prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison were tortured . OK . I do n't know exactly what the right word to use is but torture , you think of being whipped and flogged and having your fingernails pulled out . These men were . @!BURNS : @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : . evilly mistreated , degraded , sexually humiliated . But we have -- if we call everything torture , then we 're going to lose our capacity to identify what is real torture and what is simply something horrible but not quite as bad . @!MONICA-CROWLEY-FO : And I also want to pick up on something that -- a point that Jim is starting to make here , which is the use of this sort of inflammatory language too . In talking about the prisoners were mistreated , nobody is making excuses for that . However , we have to make the distinction of how they were -- how -- in what context all of these events took place . I think one of the reasons why the media -- and this was a public investigation , as you , Neal , pointed out . General Kimmitt had made this announcement back in January . One of the big reasons why the media did n't really move on this initially was there was a lack of pictures . Now , not excusing. @!GABLER : Exactly right . @!CROWLEY : . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ internationally so fast and so furiously was the fact that it was accompanied by photographs . @!BURNS : And in fact , there has been a second wave of photographs . A couple of days ago , " The Washington Post " released a new batch of photographs of soldiers -- American soldiers , we think , abusing in some way or another Iraqi prisoners of war . But then " The Post " said this -- " The new pictures appear to show American soldiers abusing prisoners . " But " The Post " could not eliminate the possibility that some of them -- meaning some of the pictures were staged . Neal , do you go with the pictures with this caveat or if you have the caveat , if you 're worried about the possibility they were staged , do you not just hold back on the pictures ? @!GABLER : Well , I saw the pictures in " The Post " and you know , I do n't know what they proviso was for because we saw , you know , Private Lynndie England right there , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other photographs , you know , the photograph of the man with the dog collar . So , you know , it seems to me that this proviso was perfectly appropriate . It was also appropriate to show the pictures . @!HALL : I think that it is all about the pictures . President Bush , in the interview that I read , with Al Arabiya , one of the Arab networks said , " We know it 's true . We saw the pictures . " And I think that is what we 're dealing with . I was on O'Reilly the other night and Sy Hersh from " The New Yorker " was on there and he was making a very good point , which is this is a generation that is taping this , that is sending it around on CDs . And I think that we all believe it , including the president of the United States , who reportedly only saw these pictures when they were in the media . @!CROWLEY : The whole idea of the photographs just had me floored . I mean the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ States is known for a certain set of moral values . We are better than the terrorists . I mean there is a double standard . The Arab media is not outraged about the acts of terror that their fellow Arabs engage in , but they 're outraged about this . But this whole idea that any American solider would be that stupid , ( a ) to engage in these acts , and ( b ) to put them on film , is outrageous to me. @!BURNS : A quick , final word . @!PINKERTON : Also -- we 're also known for broadcasting and televising and picturing sex all over the world too , which is hurting us badly now . @!BURNS : We have to take a break . We 'll be back to talk about the continuing struggle to define decency on radio and TV. @!ANNOUNCER : What 's the difference between Oprah talking about sex on the air and Howard Stern talking about sex on the air ? The FCC 's latest indecency debate when FOX NEWS WATCH continues . @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!END-# 
##17065 @!BURNS : The Federal Communications Commission has fined Howard Stern for indecency several times for his radio discussions about oral and anal sex . Now , it 's trying to decide whether Oprah Winfrey 's televised discussions about oral and anal sex are indecent . Monica , can there be a distinction or is the problem simply the topic not who discusses it and how it's. @!CROWLEY : I 'm blushing here based on this topic . @!BURNS : Should I start with somebody else ? @!CROWLEY : No , I think there 's a distinction to be made , but it might be a distinction without a difference here . Look , Howard Stern 's radio show is -- whatever you think of him , whatever you think of the show -- it 's geared for a certain demographic and that 's men from 18 to 54 . Oprah Winfrey 's audience is a different kind of audience . It 's mostly women and mothers , for example . So the difference between Stern and Oprah is the context . It 's the audience . In Oprah @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ so-called educated context . Howard Stern 's discussions of sex are largely gratuitous and entertainment-based. @!GABLER : May I make another distinction ? Howard Stern is a pariah in much of American , obviously not among his audience . And Oprah Winfrey is beloved . And so what we 've got here is essentially Howard Stern calling the bluff of the FCC . That 's really what 's going on . @!BURNS : Right . The FCC is considering this because Stern brought the issue up . @!GABLER : Yes . @!BURNS : . and said Oprah talks about the same thing . @!GABLER : Yes . But -- so what Stern is saying is look , if you come after me and now let 's see if you 're coming to come after Oprah , who 's not like me. @!BURNS : But is it fair to make a distinction , Jane , between someone 's who using -- I 'll paraphrase Monica here -- someone who 's using these topics to make jokes at someone like Oprah , who whatever you think is trying to get at something educational @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to be made . And you know , as the weeks go on , I 'm finding myself -- dare I say -- a little more sympathetic to Howard Stern than I was because , you know , I -- first of all , we should say this letter writing campaign appears to be orchestrated by his fans . @!BURNS : To the FCC , we 're talking about ? @!HALL : To the FCC . The Oprah show aired in October . It was a show about teen sex . It probably informed a lot of parents who needed to know what was out there in the world of teenagers . I think you can make a distinction but it was also interesting to me to , this week , read in " The New York Observer " that they called Hilary Clinton , Chuck Schumer , other New York officials . Nobody is coming to Howard Stern 's defense . And he is , in some ways , being used as a whipping boy for what is becoming a serious First Amendment issues . @!PINKERTON : Let 's be @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talk about sex in their own different ways for the exact same reason , to get ratings , to make money . If Howard Stern gets prosecuted and -- has been prosecuted and gets fined , he gets run off the air , and Oprah Winfrey gets nothing because nobody will criticize her and the FCC does n't dare do anything to her , then that proves the horrible and terrible precedent that 's going to be set here when the FCC uses its arbitrary power -- and they 're now saying now , in the wake of the Bono case , where first the FCC said when Bono used the f-word as an adverb , they said oh , no big deal . Then the pressure came down . They said , oh , we changed our mind . Now , we 're going to fine him . That arbitrary power is to be feared . It 's going to cut the throat of the First Amendment . @!CROWLEY : You 're right . It 's arbitrary and it 's also very subjective . The FCC , right now , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of these broadcast shows , whether it 's television or radio . So we have a bunch of bureaucrats sitting down in Washington at the FCC trying to decide what 's obscene and indecent and what 's not . And then this is why you get sort of this fuzzy area where Oprah is educational and Oprah 's demographic is different . But Howard Stern is doing this gratuitously , so he should be fined and Oprah should be . @!BURNS : But why ca n't that be a valid distinction that certain material is intended for educational purposes and certain material is intended to make 18 to 54-year-old men laugh ? @!CROWLEY : Make that clear . Make that clear then , Eric . The FCC currently does not have a universal code of standard . @!PINKERTON : You make me laugh when you say Oprah is trying to educate people about oral and anal sex . I mean please . My friend , Greg Punchinello ( ph ) is a First Amendment lawyer in Los Angeles . He makes a point that look , these Abu Ghraib prison photos @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ be deemed obscene . I mean if the FCC were really out to be censorious and they might in some future administration , they could say , look , ABC and NBC get huge fines for showing that sort of pornography. @!GABLER : Look , let 's get to the bottom line . This is all about politics . It 's an election year . The FCC and the Bush Administration want to play to their base . And one of the things that Howard Stern has done besides calling the bluff on the FCC is he has shown how easy it is to orchestrate a letter writing campaign . @!BURNS : Jane , do you have a final word ? @!HALL : No. @!BURNS : Oh , I thought you did . @(CROSSTALK) @!BURNS : No , I do . I just wanted to . @(CROSSTALK) @!BURNS : Usually , what I say does n't make you laugh , right ? Usually it informs you . That was just that one comment about Oprah that makes you laugh . @!PINKERTON : Yes , when you call Oprah educational TV I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a break and you wo n't hear it . After the break , we 'll be back with our " Quick Takes on The Media , " including Michael Moore versus George Bush in a sequel , and a Republican candidate for president , the democratic candidate for president and the Showtime candidate for president . Stay tuned for more FOX NEWS WATCH . @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!END-# 
##17066 @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!BURNS : Time now for our " Quick Takes on The Media . " Headline no. 1 , " Family Decides , Newspaper Abides . " The Portland , Maine " Press Herald , " one of the papers calling for the Rumsfeld resignation , by the way , had a tougher decision to make a few days ago : should it publish the picture of the coffin of a local soldier killed in Iraq . The paper decided to let the soldier 's family decide . The family said yes . The paper published the picture . By the way , the picture we just showed you was a different picture . Jim , this is journalism as democracy . Good idea ? @!PINKERTON : It 's a certain amount of sensitivity , which reporters are not normally given credit for . I usually of the song , " Dirty Laundry " by Don Henley , you know , which wants more gore the better for one to say you were nice . @!THOMAS : Bad precedent . Bad precedent . I just think that this @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . It 's one thing to say you 're barred from , let 's say , the church service if it was in a church . We want it private . That 's one thing . You 're out there in public . Picture of the coffin , it 's a nice event . It ought to be carried . @!GABLER : I 'd make another distinction . If it 's news , then you do n't consult . If it 's not news , if it 's color , then you do consult . And I think in my estimation . @!BURNS : Which is it in this case ? @!GABLER : Probably news . I do n't think they should have been consulted . @!BURNS : Jane ? @!HALL : I thought it was a pleasure to see someone wrestle with an ethical issue . I 'm not sure how I come down on it , but the editor 's account of it was a very sort of heartening account of somebody thinking about the impact of a story for once , whether you agree with what they did @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ because you said you do n't know how you come down on it . @(LAUGHTER) @!BURNS : I 'm afraid this is going to get a little wishy-washy. @!HALL : Oh , OK. @!BURNS : Therefore , we 'll go to " Quick Take " headline no. 2 , " CNN Hires POW . " CNN has hired a man named Ron Young to be a special contributor to the network 's coverage of the war on terrorism . Young has no experience as a journalist . He has 22 days of experience as a prisoner of war in Iraq . Cal , I think it 's a limited hire , five weeks , something like that . At any rate , good idea ? @!THOMAS : It still wo n't help their ratings . No , I do n't understand what he brings to the picture that 's going to keep him on for a couple of weeks . I mean . @!BURNS : Well , I do n't know about that but being -- we were constantly having people , Jim , on all news cable who were providing @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!PINKERTON : I like to hear experts talk . This guy was there . He walked the walk . Let him on . @!HALL : You know I think we 've had way too many generals and former generals . I do n't mind this as an idea . I do think it 's kind of odd that he was chosen as " People 's " -- one of " People 's " most eligible bachelors , which says something about our celebrity culture . @!BURNS : He was ? @!HALL : That 's what I 've read . @!GABLER : Well , ordinarily , I would have asked , you know , is his expertise relevant to what he 's going to be reporting . We do n't know the answer to that . But then I read a statement by him saying that his duty is to make sure that support for the military does not waiver . That 's not journalism . That 's propaganda . He should not be . @!PINKERTON : That 's opinion . And he 's got a right to his opinion . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Now , what if the journalists said . @(CROSSTALK) @!BURNS : Maybe he 's not -- maybe we 're not to think of him as a journalist . We 're to think of him the way we think of so many commentators , Neal , like the military people we have on . You know , he 's not -- he was n't hired to . @(CROSSTALK) @!GABLER : But he 's not called a commentator . He 's called a journalist . He 's not -- we 're hiring you for commentary . @!BURNS : Yes , but his role will be . @!GABLER : If someone were hired to say my job is to make sure that I deny support to the war in Iraq , I believe that Cal and Jim and Jane and myself would say no. @!BURNS : Let 's go to " Quick Take " headline no. 3 , " Journalists Fight Secrecy . " Tom Curley , the president and CEO of the Associated Press has had with government secrecy . Curley wants the media to form a lobbying group to insist on a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ watched and we are the watchers , " Curley says , " Keeping an eye on government activities lately has gotten a lot harder . " Meaning , Jane , this is necessary more than ever before because of the Bush Administration 's proclivity not to be open with journalists . Do you agree ? @!HALL : Well , I think that I agree with this and I think it 's a -- in this climate , it 's a pretty radical move actually for a mainstream news organization to take -- I 've talked to a lot of journalists who covered the White House for many years , they say this is without a doubt the most secretive administration partially due to 9/11 . But I think more openness is not a bad thing . It used to be what things were about . @!BURNS : And Jim , would this be a good way to go about getting the government to be more open ? @!PINKERTON : Well , look , all reporters have a class interest in maximum exposure so we can get to do everything , see @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a class interest in keeping things a secret . And the public interest is somewhere between admittedly much more closer to the journalists ' interest than the government . @!BURNS : So let them fight it out ? @!PINKERTON : Let them fight it out . @!THOMAS : There have always been secrets in government and one of the problems is that we have fewer journalists who are willing to work hard to get the information that is there if they route it out and too few big corporate owners who want to spend the money to pay for them . @!BURNS : We have to take a final break . When we come back , it 'll be your turn . @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!BURNS : About the photos of American soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners , which was a big topic for us last week , here 's Tracy form London , England -- " The media , and especially , ' 60 Minutes II , ' are sentencing our men and women , most of who had nothing to do with any of this , to increased danger , imminent torture @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , California -- " In all the media hyperventilating over the torture ' of Iraqi prisoners , I have not heard anyone ask the most important question : Did we get information from the prisoners that saved American lives ? We should make whole villages pose naked if it is necessary to save a single American life . " About Disney 's refusal to allow its Miramax division to release Michael Moore 's new anti-Bush movie , here 's Jim from Plantsville , Connecticut : " Michael Moore 's books and so-called documentaries are so full of half-truths and outright lies they rival Nazi propaganda films of the 1930s . Disney should be applauded for refusing to be a part of such a hate- filled diatribe . " About the FCC 's trying to decide whether Oprah is as indecent as Howard Stern , here 's Steven from West Palm Beach , Florida : " There is no difference between Oprah or Howard Stern talking about sex . They 're both simply seeking ratings . They 're both also programs intended for adults , not children . The market , that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , not a bunch of pinheads at the FCC . " But Steve from Henderson , Nevada says this : " Howard Stern is obscene . Oprah is serene . Dr. Ruth is mundane . You can talk about anything but the way you choose to speak determines whether you 're delightfully pleasant or simply a pig ! " Finally , I 'd like to break a promise . I told Cal before he left for vacation and miss last week 's show that I would n't read a letter this week commenting on how much better looking Monica Crowley is than he . Sorry , Cal . Ed from Tucson , Arizona -- " I really like Cal , but Monica Crowley , wow ! Jim and Neal should take a day off now and then . And Eric , you too . " I guess it was n't such a good idea after all , Cal . @!THOMAS : I 've got a mustache. @!BURNS : I wo n't do it next time . Here 's our address : newswatch 
##17067 ERIC @!BURNS , HOST : A startling new weapon is now being used in the war between the United States and Iraq , pictures . What should news organizations do about this weapon ? They have never had to answer a more momentous question . And here 's anther question for them : just how up in American government does the blame go for this use of pictures as weapons ? We have some important things to talk about this week on FOX NEWS WATCH . We 'll get started after the latest news . @(NEWSBREAK) @!BURNS : The FOX NEWS WATCH panel this week is Jim Pinkerton of " Newsday , " syndicated columnist Cal Thomas , Jane Hall of the American University and media writer Neal Gabler . I 'm Eric Burns . FOX NEWS WATCH is coming right up . The first question that TV news organizations had to ask about this video was whether to show it at all ? And they all did . The second question was how much to show . Different news organizations , Jim , answered that question in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ NE : It 's a matter of taste for each outlet . I mean I think most -- the overwhelming number of American outlets did nothing other than show the picture prior to Mr. Berg getting his head cut off . " The Drudge Report , " you know , which is sort of the dirty secret of every journalist showed three still photos . And I suppose some enterprising people could find the Arabic Web sites that showed the entire videotape. @!BURNS : Well , and also , Jane , " The Dallas Morning News , " in an editorial , showed a photo of Mr. Berg after he had been beheaded -- it -- just talking about this , you want to apologize -- holding up a head . But the head was blacked out in the photo . Now , obviously , people who do this kind of thing are trying to make the point that this was a ghastly act . Those of you in our audience have a right to know how ghastly it was . Comment for me on what " The Dallas Morning News @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I think that , in a way , newspapers are different . Leonard Downie , the editor of " The Washington Post , " was talking about the abuse photos and what they showed . I agree with Jim , that it 's a matter of taste . Sean Sanity played a gaiter of 30 seconds of the audio on his radio show , trying to make the point that if we 're going to show torture , we should show the other . I think in a newspaper , you have to consider that it is coming into people 's homes in ways that maybe are slightly different from a newscast that airs at night . I think you have to consider who the audience is likely to be . @!BURNS : Neal , they 're both waffling as far as I. @!NEAL-GABLER-MEDIA : Yes , well , first of all , I. @!BURNS : . saying it 's a matter of taste . @!GABLER : Well , first of all , I disagree with them . @!BURNS : . what 's the judgment of matter . @!HALL : I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GABLER : First of all , I disagree that it 's a matter of taste . We 're not in the taste business . We 're in the news business . @!HALL : I said it 's a matter of audience . @!GABLER : And as far as I 'm concerned , I mean I think that news drives it . How much do you need of this to tell the story , to advance the story ? @!BURNS : All right , answer the question . You 're running Fox News Channel . @!GABLER : Yes . @!BURNS : How much of the video do you air , Neal ? @!GABLER : Well , I mean obviously this is an editorial decision . Let me frame it that way . For me , I would air probably very little and I 'll tell you why . Not for taste reasons , but because I think that by simply framing it and showing the beginning of the video , you already convey to the audience exactly what 's going to transpire and they do n't need words . @!BURNS : ( @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : No , it 's -- I do n't think words are anywhere near as effective in telling this story as the image is . But I do n't think you need to show an awful lot . Having said that , I also can say that look , you can go to the Internet . If you want to see the whole thing , you could go to the Internet and see the entire video . @!CAL-THOMAS-SYNDIC : But the broadcast networks , of course , still reach the largest number of people . I was in the United Kingdom last week and I saw a little more of it on British television than I did on Fox News Channel , which I could also watch over there . I think if we 're going to show -- and we should -- Americans leaping out of the World Trade Center to their death on 9/11 that we need to show the horrors of this not withstanding the fact that our enemies , the people who do this , want to use it as propaganda , to lower approval for the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can take over . It 's a tough thing to balance but we need to show the brutality of these savages so we can once again underscore what we 're really up against . @!BURNS : But what Cal is saying is we ca n't win in this position because if we underscore the savagery , we do what the savages want us to do . @!HALL : Well , and I think this is a case where you can not consider that because it is -- I would imagine that if the people who did this deed were assuming it would lead to evening newscasts -- and it did -- so in a way , if you think about that , then you would n't put it on at all . @!PINKERTON : We 're all pulling out punches here , including Neal , I mean , because we 're all afraid to push the entire video , including the World Trade Center . There are lots of photographs of dead firemen , people after having crashed on the ground 110 stories below that were never shown on TV or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . People want to get the gist of it but they do n't want to see the whole thing . The paradox of it is if it 's horrible , we 'll run it . If it 's really horrible , we won't. @!BURNS : What about the fact , Jim , that some news organizations -- and I do n't know if this is one of them or not but I know that some news organizations have gotten complaints for doing coverage of this story and not providing the Web site address for those who wanted to look it up themselves . Now , is that hypocrisy or is that simply people wanting to have their own option as to whether or not to see these pictures . @!PINKERTON : Well , I do n't -- again , that 's a taste issue . I do n't think that -- look , any Arab . @!BURNS : Make your own choice . @!PINKERTON : Hold on . Any Web site that had the videotape , especially too soon , back to the point I 've made a couple of times @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ been complicit somehow in the killing . And so , the last thing you want to do is help them . I mean you do n't want to make their life easier by bringing traffic to them by -- if they are involved in a murderous conspiracy . @!BURNS : But what about people who might feel I want to see this . I know it 's not good for everybody . @!HALL : But Eric it 's not -- I think we 're into strange territory , if you do n't mind my saying so . It 's not my right to see the beheading of somebody . I do n't consider that a freedom of the press issue exactly . I mean we think we have a right because we 've seen so much , I think . And there 's a danger . You can be desensitized. @!GABLER : Well , if you find it . @!HALL : ( UNINTELLIGIBLE ) . @!GABLER : If you want to find it , you can find it . One thing I think that 's very dangerous here is to frame @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ and the right-wing , particularly , wants to get this image out there because they think that it will make -- lessen the gravity of the crimes at Abu Ghraib and help George Bush . I think you have to put that aside . You 've got to make this a news judgment . @!BURNS : Well , do you think the media have put it aside ? It seems to me they have -- that they 've been running this story of Nic Berg rather independently of its possible political context . @!GABLER : And I think that 's exactly the way it should be . I think the judgments ought to be made in terms of news not in terms of politics . @!THOMAS : Well , listen , it works both ways . I mean , you know , the left-wing wants to continue to show these pictures of the prison in order to help John Kerry . So you could play that game both sides . @!BURNS : And we 're agreed that it should n't be played on either side ? @!GABLER : Exactly . @!THOMAS @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ time for a break . We 'll be back with this . @!ANNOUNCER : Should Donald Rumsfeld resign ? A lot of journalists think so . A lot of other people do n't . Stay tuned for more FOX NEWS WATCH . @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!BURNS : Should Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld resign because American soldiers mistreated Iraqi prisoners of war ? These are some of the papers and journalists who say yes , who have called for Rumsfeld to step down . But according to an ABC News/ " Washington Post " poll , only 20 percent of America 's non-journalists think Rumsfeld should step down . Sixty-nine percent think he should stay right where he is . Is -- should we make something of that , Jane , that it seems , at least in a small sample , that the American people feel one way and that a lot of journalists feel a different way ? @!HALL : Well . @!BURNS : Should we say " so what " about that ? @!HALL : Well , no , I do n't think we should say " so what . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ would say that I 'm not sure it is hundreds of newspapers . A few newspapers and columnists calling for this is what I would call a huge proportion of journalists . I do n't think the media are calling for this . @!BURNS : But a lot more , including five military papers published by Ganet have severely criticized . @!HALL : Well , they have and . @!BURNS : So if we put that into the mix too , Neal , Rumsfeld is getting very bad press in the press ... @!GABLER : Yes . @!BURNS : . and the American public are in favor of him keeping on . @!GABLER : Well , first of you have to understand that for three years he 's been getting idolatrous press . So you ca n't turn the barge around in a day . That 's no. 1 . You know no. 2 , I think these numbers correlate very closely to the number of people who believe that the offenses at Abu Ghraib were limited to the six or seven military , you know , police . So that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't go any higher and they 're giving Rumsfeld the benefit of the doubt , I think , for their own satisfaction , for their self piece of mind . @!THOMAS : This is a very dangerous thing to do in the midst of a war , let the media drive who should resign and who should stay . Journalists do n't have the kinds of information , background , security clearances to know everything that 's going on . Plus , coverage , whether it be a still shot or just a camera , only is a limited photograph or a picture of a particular incident or a particular day . It 's not the entire picture , as we have discussed many times on this show about all the good things going on . @!GABLER : I could n't disagree more . @!THOMAS : Of course . @(LAUGHTER) @!PINKERTON : Well , look , the part of what 's riving this is that there 's a substantial chunk on the right that do want Rumsfeld to resign : Max Boot from " The L.A. Times , " Ralph Peters @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Weekly Standard " has pounding away at Rumsfeld for a long time . So it is -- got it from -- Rumsfeld is getting it from both ends . However , I do agree with Neal that if you think it 's systemic , if you want to claim that this entirely like a top-down thing on the Abu Ghraib abuses , then you tend to want him to resign , which made it interesting that the Hampton Rhodes Daily Press interviewed one of the individuals singled out by General Taguba as a hero of Abu Ghraib , David O'Sutton , who 's a policeman down there in the Tide Water area , who said , " Look , this was a few bad apples . " I mean it 's -- the story as to whether or not this was from Steve Cambone and on down or just people having orgies and all these weird stuff that seems to be coming out now is much to be determined . And I certainly hate to think that Rumsfeld get pushed out -- and I do n't think he will by the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ lies . @!HALL : You know I just want to say in regard to what Cal said about the media driving this . There are serious hearings . Democrats and Republicans are asking hard questions . Rumsfeld was testifying and he very , I think , candidly went over to Baghdad and led the evening news with his support of the troops . And I think the media wanted to show that because they have been taking heat for showing the photos of abuse . @!GABLER : Something else interesting here too . Notice how we 're not talking about Donald Rumsfeld 's fate and not about Abu Ghraib . And the reason for that it seems to me is kind of Rule 101 of journalism , journalists always follow the easiest story . Well , the easiest story is whether Rumsfeld is going to survive or not who is responsible , what really happened , you know , how far up it goes . So as James Fallow , the editor and writer , once said , that if political reporters covered medicine the way that they would cover politics @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ win the Nobel Prize . @(CROSSTALK) @!THOMAS : But this is coming on . I mean you got the court martial probably next week . " The New York Times " reported on Friday that this specialist who was the main character in this has said it did n't go up to the highest levels . As a matter of fact , his sergeant ordered cut off all of that stuff and when he left the room , they started it all again . He claims that it did n't go any higher than the perpetrators. @!BURNS : Let me , as you did , refer to Cal 's phrase about the media driving this . Do the media have the power , Jim , to drive this so much that Rumsfeld can resign ? Ultimately , are the media tough enough to force a cabinet officer out of office ? @!PINKERTON : Are the media in the Constitution somewhere where they can impeach you or something ? Look , I worked in the Reagan White House when Ed Meese was there and he got clobbered every day for four years @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ President Reagan to be attorney general and was confirmed by the Senate . So I would say no . The media can take their best shot and if that 's all it is , they 'll fail . @!HALL : You know I think if George Bush determines that it will hurt him in his reelection campaign , that 's the decision that will be made about Donald Rumsfeld 's fate not the media deciding it . @!BURNS : So as powerful as the media are , Neal , their power stops at a lower level than being able to force this kind of decision ? @!GABLER : Well , I do n't think they 're forcing the decision by reporting on Abu Ghraib and all of the things that are going wrong in Iraq . And let 's face it , virtually everything is going wrong in Iraq . @!THOMAS : That 's not true . @!GABLER : Then ultimately they drive him from office not the . @!BURNS : Not the editorial . @!GABLER : Not the editorials. @!BURNS : Cal , I 'll give you a final brief @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wrong in Iraq . And I can take cameras in there tomorrow if I was n't so tall and a heavy target and show plenty of things that are going right . It 's all a matter of perspective . @!BURNS : You were already off last week . You stay here this week . It 's time for another break . We 'll be back with our " Quick Takes on The Media . " @!ANNOUNCER : Who should make the decision about whether to put this kind of picture in the paper ? We 'll tell you who made the decision for one paper when FOX NEWS WATCH continues . @!END-# 
##17068 ERIC @!BURNS , HOST : FOX NEWS WATCH Segment 1 , the media blast Bush for Iraq . The media back Bush for Iraq . And Segment 2 , one newspaper goes to amazing lengths to be fair and balanced to Bush on Iraq . Segment 3 , will advertisers have an effect on war coverage ? Will gay couples get their pictures on the front page ? And MTV in the condom business , first the news . @(NEWSBREAK) @!BURNS : Some amazing things are being said in the media these days about President Bush 's Iraq policy by some very unlikely people . Speaking of unlikely people , here 's Jim Pinkerton of " Newsday , " syndicated columnist Cal Thomas , Jane Hall of the American University and media writer Neal Gabler . I 'm Eric Burns . FOX NEWS WATCH is coming right up . Tucker Carlson , conservative commentator , CNN , says he was foolish to support the war in Iraq . " The New York Times " liberal editorial page is in favor of sending more troops to Iraq . Al @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ says this : " The war in Iraq is the biggest military mess miscreated in the Oval Office and miscarried by the Pentagon in my 80-year lifetime . " Neuharth wants the troops out of Iraq and President Bush out of office . Neuharth says Bush should not run for re-election . Cal , " USA Today , " largest circulation of any paper in the country , not a liberal fashion by any means . What does it mean that the founder of this paper has turned on the administration ? @!CAL-THOMAS-SYNDIC : Nothing . He 's no Walter Cronkite and this is not Vietnam . To make an over-the-top comment like Al Neuharth did that this is worse than ever , ignores Vietnam and the experience , which was a far worse war with far more casualties . Being an opinion writer is like being a perpetual adolescent . You can have opinions on everything and take responsibility for nothing . His opinions do n't mean anything . They do n't have all the facts . @!BURNS : There are some shows on all-news cable in which the opinions @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : Oh yes , on ours , of course , and including the one I just I gave . @!BURNS : Not to be too defensive . @!JANE-HALL-AMERICA : Well , you know , I think it 's very interesting . I think it 's a commentary on how polarized the climate is , usually , that we 're surprised when conservatives are criticizing President Bush . I think that if you look at the most recent " Time " /CNN poll that showed his approval ratings below 50 percent , which is always the worrisome sign for someone up for re-election . Even his friends are -- who are -- and especially his friends , which some of these people are , are concerned about how he is going to be perceived , whether he 's going to be getting us out of Iraq . The fact is that a lot of people -- Carlson said something very interesting , which is as a conservative who does n't believe in big government , he said , " I feel foolish assuming we could export democracy and use the federal government @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!JIM-PINKERTON- " NE : I mean there 's no question that the conservative thinking is fragmenting all over the place . And Mark Halperin , who is a certified blue-chip neoconservative writing for " The Wall Street Journal , " said that the Iraq showed -- quote -- " deliberate contempt for history , strategy and thought . " And this was in the Journal . But Tucker Carlson -- I just want to correct Jane a little bit -- I do n't really think counts as a conservative anymore . I think he is making that Arianna Huffington , David Brock , radical chic , off-to-the-Hamptons Latina Brown shift , which has gotten him of all things coincidence amazingly , a show on PBS. @(CROSSTALK) @!HALL : Yes , but Paul Gigot is also getting a show on PBS . I think it shows PBS is going to the right not he 's going to the left . @!NEAL-GABLER-MEDIA : Maybe I can just put this in a different context here and . @!BURNS : We could . I like the context it 's in. @!GABLER : You know I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . How 's that ? I mean part of this , I think , is a reaction to the coverage in the wrap-up to the war and the early stages of the war , where the press was asleep , including the conservative press . They were in a daze . @!BURNS : Too far to one extreme before maybe going . @!GABLER : They did n't cover the debate . They did n't analyze the consequences . They did n't look at the centers . They were asleep at the wheel and now , all of a sudden , they 've awakened . @!PINKERTON : Now hold on a second . Let 's just correct that . " The Wall Street Journal " ran probably the most influential op-ed on the run up to the war , the Brent Scowcroft piece , which was anti-Iraq war in the summer of ' 02 . So just be a little fair . @!GABLER : One versus , you know , thousands . @!PINKERTON : OK. @!GABLER : . pieces that came out . Should ( UNINTELLIGIBLE ) -- you know , testimony @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ troops barely got covered . In " The New York Times " it was buried , I think , on page 20. @(CROSSTALK) @!BURNS : Let me return to the theme at the beginning of this segment though . And I 'm pointing out a conservative journalist who posed a liberal paper in favor of part of . @!GABLER : What I was saying though , Eric , is that I think conservatives feel that they got bit . They got , you know , hood wigged . They looked at politics rather than ideology and this is the consequence . @!THOMAS : I do n't feel that I got hood wigged . I 'm still for the policy . I would like to see it implemented a little better . But look , we 've only been . @!GABLER : A little better , Cal ? @!THOMAS : Yes , a little better because I think a lot is going well that is not being reported . And we 've said this before on this show , a lot of these stories that are being reported are snapshots . They @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's going on . @!BURNS : Yes , its ' a call for context , which is. @!THOMAS : Yes . @!BURNS : ... what you 're making . And it came from another , I think , surprising source , Abe Rosenthal , who used to run " The New York Times , " said this just a few days ago , writing in " The New York Sun " now . He said , " Since the latest torture story , many editors have failed to present background stories about the millions killed by Saddam . These journalists are truly embarrassing . " So what he 's saying is that the stories need to go back years really and refer to what Saddam did by way of putting things into context now . @!HALL : Well , you know , there were two stories in the press this week about how they 're trying to get some of these horrible Saddam videos to be played , of some of the torture to try -- and the fact is -- you know I 'm sure that 's going to work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this week to try to get the Republicans to stay with him . Many of them on this issue . And I saw an interesting quotation . I think it was from a New York congressman saying he thought that the hearings and anguish over them , in a way , had played against them so strongly that they are trying to move beyond this , trying to change the subject . @!PINKERTON : Well , this is a case where , again , as I said last week , if it 's horrible , you put it on the air . If it 's really horrible , you do n't . So the Saddam videos , torture -- I 've seen some of those on Fox where they have a guy who looks like he 's about to get his head cut off or something and then they pull away . Now , I do n't know if that 's what the government released or what Fox -- the decision Fox made or other networks have made . But if you really want to show the horror of this , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ : All right , Rosenthal -- let 's get this -- let 's put this in another context . Rosenthal is a conservative . He is not looking for context . He 's looking for justification . Essentially what he 's saying is every time we write a story about Abu Ghraib , we have to write about Saddam Hussein and his torture so that we can justify what happened in Abu Ghraib. @!THOMAS : He 's right . @!BURNS : That 's enough context for one segment . It 's time for a break . We 'll be back with this . @!ANNOUNCER : What exactly does it mean to be fair and balanced when covering the president ? Is it possible to be too fair and balanced ? Stay tuned for FOX NEWS WATCH . @!END-# 
##17069 ( COMMERCIAL BREAK ) @!BURNS : In this segment the fighting in Iraq , the coverage in Appleton , Wisconsin . " The Post Crescent " newspaper in Appleton has been getting so many letters to the editor criticizing the war in Iraq that it asked for letters supporting the war . The paper 's editors recently wrote an editorial saying in part " we would prefer to put forward a better sense of balance . If you would like to help us balance ' things out , send us a letter . We 'd love to hear from you . " And then , of course , came the inevitable charges that this was being -- this was a conservative response , Neal . And the paper 's been very objective about -- abject about this saying no , no , we simply wanted to balance things out . @!GABLER : Well , they certainly misstated things . But I think the primary question here is , you know , do letters to the editor -- are they intended to reflect the opinion of the community or @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BURNS : All right . Let me ask . @!GABLER : And that 's the question that I think Appleton had to answer . @!BURNS : Oh God , I hate to say something like this . Give me a one word answer . But just for the moment , one word answers . Would you have done this if you were the editor ? @!HALL : I know I would not and I think . @!BURNS : That 's more than one . Jim ? @!PINKERTON : Yes . @!THOMAS : Done what ? @!BURNS : Would you have asked for letters to come in on . @!THOMAS : No. @!BURNS : . the other point of view , ask . @!THOMAS : Not that way , no. @!BURNS : OK , why would you . @!PINKERTON : Well , you wanted one word and I was ethical and followed your rule of only one word , but now I 'll explain . @(CROSSTALK) @!PINKERTON : It was somewhat ham-handed attempt to be , of all things , fair and balanced . Look , there are two political parties . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this country , left and right . And it is perfectly plausible for a newspaper to say look , there -- let 's see what the full voice of the communities -- however , they also should have said , here are the letters we 're running and here 's the statistical collation of all the letters so people can get a flavor for how representative or not the letters are . And then , OK , if we wanted to do it , I think we would have done a poll of the local area as well and said , now look , there 's three different snapshots , letters , statistical and then a survey . @!BURNS : What if , Jane , the overwhelming disfavor , overwhelming dislike of the war is the sentiment in the community ? @!HALL : Well , I think you go with your community . The interview that I read with him , with the program on public radio called " On The Media " said they print 80 to 90 percent of the letters they get . The letters are running strongly @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ interviewer said they got phone calls , which prompted this editorial , saying they were anti-Bush that -- which prompted them to do this . That says to me they were responding to pressure from people who may have been way outside the community . He said this was really only an issue on the Internet , which is another interesting aspect of this . @!THOMAS : Well , the fact is , of course , most people only write for bad things , to criticize , to object and the rest . And as the editor , as Jane indicated , explained later , because of phone calls saying you 're too one- sided , the editor said , look , anybody else who has different opinion , please feel to write . This is an open house letters to the editor page . But as Jim said , it was too ham-handed initially . @!GABLER : May I separate two adjectives here ? Fair and balanced ? Fair is , I think , extremely important . Balanced is a very dodgy issue , it seems to me because you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ are equivalent . Not all positions are equally valid . And I think this is a situation , which you want to reflect the community . Balance distorts the . @(CROSSTALK) @!HALL : I doubt the conservatives . @!PINKERTON : ( UNINTELLIGIBLE ) balance of left and right , Democrat and Republican . @(CROSSTALK) @!HALL : But I doubt . @(CROSSTALK) @!PINKERTON : Wisconsin is sort of a swing state . It 's got , you know , Republicans and Democrats in Congress in both . But look . @!HALL : A lot of conservatives would be clamoring for balance . You see , in my hometown newspaper , which has an air base there , I would bet the letters are running more favorable towards the war . And I do n't think anybody would say they should run more left-wing letters . @(CROSSTALK) @!BURNS : As what we 're saying now indicates , there 's a tremendous amount of controversy in this country today about the media 's role in covering the war in Iraq . And it 's reflected in a new Fox News Opinion Dynamics Poll . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? More people think that the problems related to Iraq are being created in the news media than in Iraq , in Washington D.C. , or in any of those combined . Cal , is this a typical blame the messenger syndrome or is there something more at work here ? @!THOMAS : I think there 's part of that . But I 'd like to see a debate on whether we should go back to a form of censorship during the process of war itself . To be able to show all of those pictures while it 's going on - - the embedding during the war coverage was fine , I thought . But in the aftermath now , with all of these questions being raised , it 's a political and election year , I 'm not sure that some form of censorship might not be called for . @!BURNS : You were -- wait a minute , Cal , you 're advocating that ? @!THOMAS : Yes . @!HALL : These are our own soldiers , Cal . This was not a story brought to you outside @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's being skewed and it 's being slanted . It 's a political year . A lot of things are being said and done in the media for the express purpose of bringing down . @!HALL : The media did n't uncover Abu Ghraib. @!GABLER : The war is not expressly for the purposes of supporting George Bush . I can not believe that a conservative . @!THOMAS : People are dying . People are dying . @!GABLER : . is calling that they were put in harm 's way . @!THOMAS : Well , believe it . @!GABLER : That a conservative would be calling for this . @(CROSSTALK) @!GABLER : I 'm astonished . @(CROSSTALK) @!PINKERTON : Censor all of those reporters who were beating at the prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison , which a censor -- stop watching television , come beat them up just to get ratings and front page story . @!THOMAS : Very cute . @!GABLER : Mike Wilson has been slapping them around . @!BURNS : We have to take another break . We 'll be back with our " Quick Takes on @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ other things , these two questions . @!ANNOUNCER : Do TV advertisers like war ? And why is MTV bringing out its own brand of condoms ? FOX NEWS WATCH will be right back . @!END-# 
##17070 @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!BURNS : It 's time now for our " Quick Takes on The Media . " Headline No. 1 , " And Now A Word From Our Sponsor : The Word Is Caution ' . " Companies that advertise on television are worried about the effects of real-life violence on their bottom lines . Advertising industry analyst Jack Myers says the result of this in the year ahead might be fewer ad dollars going to the all-news networks and more for such networks as the Disney Channel , Nickelodeon and Oxygen . Does that sound plausible to you , Jane ? @!HALL : It sounds plausible except if you read further into this story , it quotes the advertising people at Fox News and CNN saying that they have not seen this happening yet and that the news is compelling . And I agree that advertisers are not known for their editorial courage , but so far I do n't think that this is -- I think this is a possibility from what I 've seen . @!BURNS : But what they are known for , Jim @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ see their ads . If they war heats up , if political tensions at home heat up , that 's an important story . The more people who watch , the more people will see ads. @!PINKERTON : I agree . I will agree that in theory . If you see a mushroom cloud on TV , you might be less interested in buying a squeaky toy for your dog . But it does seem that ratings -- that bad news -- back to our issue about bad news -- is good for this business . @!THOMAS : We had a policy when we , you and I , were at NBC , Eric , you may remember that advertisers when they were airlines or the railroad , Amtrak , would pull their commercials if there was a story about a train wreck or a plane crash . This takes it a step further , I think . @!GABLER : If you buy into this premise , here 's my concern : my concern is that there will be pressure on stations to provide more good news to attract more advertising @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ conservative outlets , are we going to get that kind of spin , more positive spin on the war to attract more advertising . I do n't know . @!BURNS : " Quick Take " headline No. 2 , " Gay Weddings : To See Or Not To See ? " An informal survey about ( UNINTELLIGIBLE ) , publication editor and publisher reveals that of the leading American newspapers covering the gay weddings in Massachusetts this week , a little more than a third used photos on their front pages . The great majority showed women not men . Only a few papers showed the couple kissing . And one of them , " The Lowell Massachusetts Sun " later apologized. @!THOMAS : I thought that was interesting that " The Lowell Massachusetts Sun " said that they needed to be more sensitive to their readers . Apparently , they were inundated with a lot of letters and phone calls saying how outraged they were to see people of the same sex kissing each other on the lips . And I do n't know too many newspapers that would do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ If -- I think , you know , we 're not talking about beheading here . It happened . It ought to be covered . It ought to be shown . This is what gay marriage is or at least part of it . @!BURNS : But the debate is do you tell it , do you show it , and what do you show , hand holding , kissing ? @!HALL : Well , you know , I think it is sort of a subtext here , which is , I think , most people would rather see two women kissing than two men kissing . And that may be an unconscious bias . @!BURNS : Do you want to explain why ? @(LAUGHTER) @!HALL : I. @!BURNS : We can picture that one . @!THOMAS : Oh boy ! @!BURNS : You 're getting into territory that does n't normally belong to this show , Jane . @!HALL : Well , I 'm just saying if I 'm editor picturing which picture is going to be more palatable to my readers , I 'm going to go with the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ culture and news papering issue there . @!BURNS : Jim ? @!PINKERTON : Two women kissing ? I 'm going back to my college dorm. @!BURNS : Could you get away from your college dorm and just analyze the thinking here about . @!PINKERTON : I think picture matter -- again , the power of choice and diversity . I mean look , " The Boston Globe " or " The San Francisco Chronicle " can do one thing and " The Salt Lake City Tribune " will do another . That 's good . @!BURNS : " Quick Take " headline No. 3 , " Must Wear TV . " MTV is now in the condom business . It sells its own brand of condoms in Germany and Austria , and this week is launching the brand in England . Right now , MTV has no plans to sell condoms in the United States . What do you think about this , Neal ? @!GABLER : Oh , this gives a whole new meaning to I want my MTV . But I understand that Fox News is actually thinking of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to a liberal . @!THOMAS : I ai n't touching that one either . @!BURNS : Geez , are you at the Improv tonight ? @!PINKERTON : Well , MTV has been agitating and publicizing sex and encouraging people to have sex all along . Why not get the benefit ? Why not reap the profit ? They 've been doing PSAs on safe sex . Why not this ? @!HALL : Yes and why not advertise something other than promoting sex ? Why not advertise safe sex ? If they 're going to do it , they ought to do it in this country . @!THOMAS : Maybe it ought to come in a free music video . @!BURNS : Are you in favor of this or opposed to this , Cal ? @!THOMAS : I do n't watch MTV anyway . I 'm several generations away from that . @!BURNS : No , but MTV is. @(CROSSTALK) @!THOMAS : Yes , but I think it says a lot about the kind of music they promote and the content as well . They ought to have it over on BET @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ a day . @!BURNS : So you watch that ? @(LAUGHTER) @!THOMAS : Oh , absolutely . @!HALL : Only to condemn it . Just to condemn it . @!BURNS : I would like now to bring to a close one of the strangest FOX NEWS WATCH segments ever to go to a break . When we come back , it 'll be your turn . @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!BURNS : About the media and the Nic Berg video , we have conflicting opinions . First , Betty from Hamden , Connecticut : " Just hearing the verbal headline that Mr. Berg was beheaded was enough news for me . I did not need pictures or detailed descriptions of the horror . " But Cheryl from Hawaii writes " I think you should not try to protect us from the horrible truth . " And Fred from Kansas City , Kansas : " As to whether the Berg video should be shown , should the Zapruder tape be shown ? Yes , but not via broadcast media that may ambush viewers who tune in midbroadcast . " About editorials urging that Secretary of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Kansas : " How can we get the media to resign ? I 'm willing to bet that the majority of Americans , if asked , would like to see this happen . " About the head of the Associated Press calling for less secrecy in government , here is John from Columbus , Ohio : " Who cares if this White House is secretive . And for the AP to cry about it is laughable . For 30 years , the press have been protecting their sources . " And Jim from Floyd , Virginia : " It was interesting to hear Cal Thomas say that the problem is too few energetic journalists to dig for stories . I agree , but please let us know the first time Fox News digs out and breaks a story that the administration does n't want . " About CNN 's hiring of a former POW to report on the war on terror , here is Chuck from Raleigh , North Carolina : " Since your show airs on the network that is fair and balanced , let me join Neal 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ he admits to being motivated towards pro-military coverage . He should not be called a journalist . But neither should anti-war activists named Koppel , Brokaw , Jennings , Rather , et cetera . " Finally , here is Ester from Hanover , Indiana : " You might want to change how you ask for our names and where we live ' . It sounds like you will be hunting us down like dogs ! ! If you do ever hunt me down , send Cal , Monica or Jim , OK ? " Sorry , Esther . We 're sending Jane and she 's staying for dinner and bringing slides of her vacation . @(LAUGHTER) @!BURNS : No , she 's not . She 's staying right here . Here 's our address : newswatch 
##17071 @!BURNS : We have talked a lot on this program about the FCC and indecency , but I do n't think we 've ever had a more interesting issue than we 've got today . The Federal Communications Commission is now saying that news programs will be scrutinized for indecency . As a result , a group that represents some CBS stations has written to the FCC saying that they might have to run their newscasts after 10:00 p.m. when it 's OK to show adult programming . Jane , before we get specific , what about this general notion of the FCC examining indecency everywhere else now looking into news programs ? @!HALL : Well , you know , I covered the creation of the TV ratings systems for children , and it was on the table or off the table that news would be exempt . I mean , I think if they started doing this , they would have serious First Amendment issues and problems . I mean , as Jim pointed out a couple of weeks ago , the pictures from Abu Ghraib Prison @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that this is a very bad trend . I mean , you can be outraged by content with starting to look at newscasts . I mean , it 's very problematic . @!BURNS : And , Jim , what they 're really concerned about -- Jane mentioned the pictures , and that 's true . They could come under the aegis of this ruling , but they 're really concerned about live programming , and let me give you an example . I do n't know if you know about this , but a station in Phoenix , Arizona , was covering live the Pat Tillman services , and , as might be appropriate , some of the speaking had a certain locker-room quality to it , and the station , fearing a fine from the FCC , immediately pulled out . So , already , even though there are no fines for news programming , there are shockwaves. @!PINKERTON : I 've been saying for months on this topic that they -- you take the least likable people in America , Howard Stern , Bubba The Love Sponge , you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ get rid of them , and you say , well , OK , nobody likes him anyway , only a few people do , and then they 're coming . They 're coming for the rest of us . If they get this -- the government gets this power -- and one of these days , I keep warning conservatives , they 're going to -- it 's going to be President Hillary Clinton , and she 's going to say , well , you know , I just do n't think that Fox News ought to be on the air , and , having set the precedent of censorship , they might get away with it . @!THOMAS : He 's right . The problem is with the FCC , which has been toothless for so long , letting people get away with what they say is pushing the envelope . Well , the envelope has been pushed so much that it 's wide open now . If the FCC had acted more responsibly along the way , I think there would be a better balance between government and broadcast @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ networks , trying to catch up with cable and " The Sopranos " and " Sex in the City , " have gone far beyond what their old broadcast standards and practices once disallowed and have brought a lot of this on themselves . @!BURNS : But , Neal , back to news specifically here . I mean , I ca n't think of a case to justify the FCC examining newscasts , can you ? @!GABLER : Neither can I. Look it , when rights collide , one of the rights has to yield in the cause of the public interest . But the right not to hear a curse word , in my estimation , it 's a no-brainer that that has to yield to a free press ... @!BURNS : Especially ... @!GABLER : ... which is the very basis of a democracy . @!BURNS : But , see , especially in the case of live programming , I mean , maybe you can make a case for saying to a news director , listen , we 're going to fine you , you should n't have put @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you ca n't hold a news operation responsible because you 're covering an important live event and somebody streaks in the background . @!THOMAS : Yes , I was going to say that 's what you 're going to find , is if this gets -- some prankster , some college kid , some guy is going to streak or realize it 's live television and scream an obscenity because he wants to get the station or the network in trouble . This opens the door for a lot of college pranks . @!BURNS : Here 's a new campaign : Fine the streaker , not the network . @!THOMAS : Well , I like -- I think a new movie ... @!HALL : Wait , but you all ... @!THOMAS : ... " When Rights Collide , " I think , is -- that would be -- that 's good . @!HALL : But you all were talking about sports . When you see somebody mouthing obscenity when they miss a field goal , I mean , are we going to start fining ESPN for what 's on there ? @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ listen to this . You know , the PBS show " Antiques Road Show " ? They -- you know this story . They were -- I do n't think they censored it , but they were very worried , Jim , a few weeks ago because up for -- not up for auction , but up for appraisal was a Marilyn Monroe pinup calendar , and they actually feared that this might have a problem . I mean , I think what we can agree on is when you get into news , not that we should be above the standards of society , but you just ca n't have the same standards that you have for entertainment . @!PINKERTON : Well , yes . I also defend entertainment . I mean , I 'm just totally in favor of getting the Federal Communications Commission hosting " Saturday Night live . " You know , just imagine the big building of bureaucrats . I mean , that 's just going to be terrible . And let 's be honest ... @!HALL : Well , they used to have that . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the ' 20s where people had to have separate beds . I mean , I do n't think any liberal or conservative wants to go down that road . @!GABLER : And let 's be honest here , too . This is not some spontaneous , you know , outrage from the public . This is an orchestrated campaign by the Parents Television Council , which is a conservative organization , of people who have n't even watched this shows saying -- you know , lobbying to the FCC against this programming , and , thankfully , , since it 's all political , after November , this is going to be a moot point . @!PINKERTON : I 'm not sure it 's -- I do n't think it ... @!HALL : I do n't think so . @!BURNS : Now did you just make an election prediction or ... @!HALL : I do n't think it 's .. @!GABLER : No , no , no , no . I mean , I think ... @!BURNS : You mean no matter who wins ? @!GABLER : No matter who wins @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ do n't think it is. @!PINKERTON : I think it 's going to continue . I think we 're going to -- some days we 're going to have television sets without an off button . @(LAUGHTER) @!THOMAS : Ponder that . @!PINKERTON : I am pondering that . Propaganda . The government propaganda . @!HALL : I do n't -- I think liberal Democrats have been very happy to get ratings and exposure by beating up on television for other reasons . I do n't think it 's ... @!BURNS : All right . This -- it seems to me -- I mean , I -- this is worth discussing because it amazes me that the FCC 's even considering it , but does anybody here think the FCC might actually take any action relating to the content of news programs . @!THOMAS : I do n't think so . I do n't think they can ! I mean , go back to electioneering . Once again , look at the song lyrics , the rock ' n ' roll stuff . There was a big brouhaha , a big @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , was involved in this . Then when we ran for president , they did a backtrack . Nothing happened . You got a few labels out there . That 's it . It 's all political . It 's an election year . I agree with Neal . It goes away next year . @!PINKERTON : The FCC responds to pressure . They 've -- they went from leaving Bono alone to saying -- to fining him when under pressure . So if the pressure is enough , they 'll do whatever they 're told . @!BURNS : It 's time for another break . We 'll be back with our quick takes on the media . And you thought Felix and Oscar were the odd couple . What about Walter , as in Cronkite , and P. , as in Diddy ? We 'll explain when FOX NEWS WATCH returns . @(COMMERCIAL-BREAK) @!END-# 